Ben's been building software for 15 years. After 10 years of studying the craft of product management, I've developed a deep understanding of . What do I need to do to get into product management? Any cons? Nov 20, 2019 3 years ago 14 min read. After all, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg and Larry Page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait. Depends on companies tbh. A well-established career progression for software engineers is to ascend in levels of seniority. Companies really want to hire PMs with past PM experience, so jobs #2, 3, etc. Brian. Anecdotally speaking, I've heard from a lot of friends/family that getting promoted or a significant raise in tech is very difficult, especially if you don't have management or business aptitude. Or had led well-known products previously. Product engineering is responsible for developing the product and keeping it operating. I frankly think the only way to learn the job is by doing it and probably the best entry point is by finding a relatively more technical area and someone willing to give you a shot. People seem to believe that the management one is easier to climb, but it boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses. Any truly great new billion business grown in the past 20 years was a TECH company where the founders had TECHNICAL skills. These cookies are used to collect information about how you interact with our website and allow us to remember you. Enjoy trying to start the next great tech company with yourIBmodeling skills. Granted 40-60hrs beats finance. Any product manager who has worked in software companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown. Which companies pay their EM/PM almost similar? WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file, Great Discussion on Blind: Software Engineers talking about working 15-20 hrs a week and earning 400k, Low Testosterone in IB (or high finance in general), Care for eachother, Care for the Community, Look to Grow, Tier 2 RX (Ducera/Gugg) vs MM IBD (HL, Blair, Piper, Baird). It's becoming more common. Salesforce, Go to company page A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. Resume Review. If you had the skills to be both. Get an inside look at top companies interview processes. Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? I found a PM position at Hertz that could be a great fit. Eng, Go to company page The best part is that all you tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and well-socialized. Engineering managers want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins. the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. I am starting to look but having no luck in getting the resume shortlisted by recruiters. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. Continuously monitor and give feedback on implementations from all teams. Pay in the US at growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels. Skills. I have 5 YOE . What do would you choose and why? IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. This website stores cookies on your computer. Look at the actual entrepreneurs that built this country- the industrialists and tycoons of the roaring 20s that would have eaten mark zuckerberg for breakfast. #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? 1. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. Widen your scope. Product gaps vs. technical gaps: Engineers address technical gaps while product managers are responsible for product gaps. Will going into the management route always make more or can experienced engineers still make the same amount or more?Im wondering if it would be better to just try and stick to an engineering role or go into a management role sooner than later. Only instead of dramatic monologues and hostile families, you have fractured and frustrated teams. How was your experience. They require a deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages. Joeseph Perla's keynote. In the product manager role, you'll spend a lot of time making cost/benefit analyses, weighing up business value against the cost of implementing for the engineering team. Dolores sunt et dolore enim quod quo dolorem molestias. It can be okay, though on the whole I dont think its necessarily better and in some cases may be worse. The Engineering Team. Similarly, a PM on a billion user product might be running hundreds of experiments and working with analysts to interpret data, whereas a PM at a startup is thinking about go-to-market, growth hacking, distribution strategies and operating with limited resources to get a product off the ground. In these roles, they oversee the product but also other business functions like marketing, sales, and finance. Read about the latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and more. Product managers define the "why" and the "what" that engineers will build. The first is the strategy component. You cannot be serious if you think being a software engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur. But not too many.2. I can see levels difference. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. SWE jobs can become very intense and toxic too. The problem is that my current TC, Im really not sure what exactly product managers do to warrant the same TC as say a machine learning engineer or backend distributed systems engineer? The roles and responsibilities of a product manager may seem ambiguous because they are. How easy/ hard is it. I have the option to work remote in Singapore, or relocate to the UK. will PMs be affected? Interview Prep. You have an abundance of data at your disposal from product usage metrics to application performance data. WSO ranks EBs. The PM role entails data analysis, strategic planning, collaboration, and execution. Maintain and monitor software to ensure proper functioning. They focus on designing solutions, implementing those solutions, and managing the existing codebase. Learner. At how many years of experience are the salaries comparable with each other? If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. 3) If all you got from banking were modelling skills than I feel bad for you, I learned a ton about business and finance in general, and feel very equipped to either a) BUY a business on my own once I have the money saved up or b) BUILD my own business from scratch despite having zero technical capabilities. Eng, Go to company page As a new grad, I was lucky enough to choose between product management and software engineering. The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. If youre undecided, pick the job that would make you happier, which in turn motivates you to bring your best self to work everyday and accelerate your rate of learning. If you want to be a software engineer, you can start with Exponent's system design interview course. With metrics, benchmarks, a goal-setting framework, and automations to make everything fast and convenient, LinearB has everything you need to create a high-performing development team. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Product Manager New York City Area. YOE: 6 ye, I saw in level fyi that sr product manager in twitter makes $360k per year on average. Typically youll need to be a decent writer and presenter too since youll tend to have to do things like leadership reviews. Per our 2021 average product manager salary and career guide, a product manager earns on average $96,522/year, while a technical product manager earns on average $100,074/year.. Microsoft I'm currently an Associate in IB, but if I were to choose my career path again, I'd suck it up and do CompSci and maybe transition to a technical Product Manager role. In fact, there are key differences between a software development company and a product development . Build products like you always wanted. Eng. It is probably not always sunshine and roses over there. I talked to a lot of people in both roles at different companies before ultimately joining the APM program at Google, which was a phenomenal experience. Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. why bother? How have you built a great partnership with the engineering lead? Check out these suggestions from eight marketing experts on how to show your true value in your first 30 days. Product Manager. The tech economy is way larger than the handful of BBs and EBs. survivorship/availability/confirmation bias. Edit 2- interesting takeaways- PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies. Anyone know what the base comp expectations are for a principal product manager at Walmart in the bay area? We want to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews heading into 2023! Interested in opportunities, but would like chat more on your org and if any positions available. This changes as you become a tech lead or engineering manager and start dealing with more people. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. Ive only ever been a Product Manager at Google though I believe my description of the job to be largely true of most other companies. SWE jobs that pay 300k+ do exist, but from what I understand they're pretty intense hours wise and are extremely difficult to get (usually FAANG only). I'm currently a software engineer. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. This is true. IBM, Go to company page Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. Pay is similar. Get a coach-supported comprehensive plan to outperform at your new job. I don't think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it, outside of certain specialties (i.e. Like all markets, tech is moving towards saturation with every day that passes. Ill go first although its my current package (got hired early 2021). Neque et quam quisquam cumque numquam temporibus. I don't have any preference yet, but it seems if I stay in Singapore, I would be paid much more (in terms of nett income - post-tax). Product Manager vs Software engineer salary. What is the MS level equivalent for the Product Manager role at Google? Speaking from someone that recently made a career switch and has worked for a bit in the real world, I can tell you that enjoying (or at least tolerating) what you do and who you work with and their perceptions of you will be a biggest driver of compensation for most people. The day-to-day for a PM and engineer are drastically different. I'm currently an L61 PM at Microsoft. LinearB is a tool that empowers your team to do exactly this. Heard of lack of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and too many meetings. If you have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the technical direction. Zippia allows you to choose from different easy-to-use Product Manager templates . A project manager on the growth side can pull in $240,000 a year . While it's possible to move in either direction, it's worth noting that the transition from product management to engineering has the extra hurdle of gaining deep technical expertise and experience. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. Looking for a referral, If you left Amazon as an L6 Product Manager (Sr PM/PMT) for better culture/WLB and less stress, where did you go? Get started with a LinearB free-forever account today! Note that responsibility is distinct from accountability. Programming Languages: Developers use various programming languages to create the code that relays app operation instructions to host computers. What should be my next rest and vest company? As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. I could really use some help. 2/apply to companies that has rotational PM program. Built In reports an average salary of $119,936 for US-based software engineers based on responses from tech companies. Chaos is usually rooted in misunderstanding. Salary Negotiation. My Google journey began in 2013, as a starry-eyed intern on the YouTube team taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in . Meta Open communication is necessary for them to assess the feasibility of new product requirements, evaluate the progress of epics and features, and review code. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. #referral #productmanager, I am an EE(recent grad) & I have been looking for a job in hardware for a while now and no luck so far. business area. Can anyone please refer me? During my time ux used to serve some product work. Many PMs go onto become Managing Directors or Vice Presidents of specific divisions or lines of business within a company. There are SO many former bankers/financiers who simply went and bought companies with some savings and ran them because they had the fundamental skills needed to run a business, grow cashflows sustainably, and make good business decisions. Thanks!#pm #pm #productmanager #apple, Hey everyone. After all, your focus should be on the product and the customer. So tech entrepreneurs are the only entrepreneurs in history to you? A Technical Program Manager (TPM) Responsibilities -. Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. But the recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad Pay differs drastically between departments. See for yourself start a free 30-day trial. What kind of skills do I need? As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. And do you know what's Apple's PM interview process? Mar 9, 2019 1. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. This path doesn't get talked a lot enough. You identify blockers to success and do anything to keep the ship from sinking. Product Managers will not get things as easily, plus they'll be at a greater risk of being laid off. Is this true? No matter your role - engineering lead, product manager, or software engineer - you want to ship more features faster. Salary. I honestly liked both roles, even though they are so different. Value Stream: Product Managers vs Technical Program Managers. The best on both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title. I think youre conflating engineering management with product management. Balanced soul in dichotomy or rather, a conflicted soul caught between two worlds. Qui velit quos dolorum velit ut consequatur mollitia. You focus on gaining skills and becoming a good engineer first whereas PM-ing is more of a trial by fire. I am on H1B work visa and so have a shorter timeline to find a job. Same base but slightly less RSUs. Microsoft, Go to company page If progression is you goal you need to look at opportunities. TPMs lead the sprints, gathers requirements from the product managers. Doing whatever it takes to make (1) happen. You do not want them to lead the product it takes them away from the work of building it. IMO this is the right answer. Amazon, Go to company page Just look at MSFT's product suite, and you can already see the inevitable demise of their stock and soon after their peers due to slowing growth. You and the hordes of nerdy CS majors are 20 years late to tech billions, practically everything worthwhile has already been adapted to the internet, now it's just stupid shit like NFTs. Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. No one is working together effectively. I have 5 YOE . Engineers spend much more time heads down building. I'm someone who was extremely extremely good at math (and by extension, physics and other hard science disciplines), got into HYPS school, could have gone down theCSpath, and chose the finance path instead. A lot of software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions architects. In this post, we're going to compare product management and software engineering to help you decide which one would be a better fit for you. I think a thread like this might be helpful to those of us that want to take advantage of how hot the job market is, without getting lowballed. #product #productmanager #pm. Generally embedded within a development team. If you find you lose something in translation, address it quickly. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. I'm considering moving to product management. Collaborate with product managers and UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications. Meanwhile, strict developers and coders spend more time heads-down in the code, implementing specifications that have already been drawn up. Too many PMs. I get 1/3 of stock units than my engineering peers.Does your company pay Product managers ~10% +- salary in comparison to Software engineers for same levels?Name your company if they pay relatively closer salary or competitive PM salary. I was an L7 Finance Manager at Google. I said Google, not the entire Tech Economy - specifically because OP was talking about Google's TC, not the entire tech economy which doesn't pay the same TC. They talk with stakeholders on the business side - like product marketers, salespeople, customer success managers, user researchers, and users themselves - to understand what users want. #pm #product #productmanage, I am currently a Glorified secretary. Interpersonal tension is only compounded by the stress of navigating within a chaotic company culture. If your company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow. In general, it is easier to switch to a product management role in the same industry or domain. ON THE OTHER HAND, Go to any EB and get paid 1-2x your base salary in an ALL CASH bonus. Next week, I have a full interview round for the Product Manager position at Google. Uber, Go to company page Software Engineer Salary. At other companies, product managers are more like project managers. A software developer is different from a product engineer. Conflict arises if either of you competes for recognition. Getting a job at Google is much harder than getting a job at a. Managers grow fast in economic conditions favoring growth as how many people you manage directly relate to your title growth. A software engineer is involved in the implementation. This involves identifying opportunities, prioritizing them, selling a vision and getting buy-in from relevant stakeholders. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. Why are PMs hated so much ? Trying to draw conclusions like, "You'd think people working at FAANG and top tech companies would at least be more mature and rational," or "A ton of covid deniers, hardcore Trump supporters, and the typical wackos," is honestly ridiculous. The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. Product managers want to create a breakthrough product. Absolutely not reality from what I've seen. Are offers still crazy high? A machine learning engineer who spends their time tuning parameters and an iOS engineer shipping a delightful user facing feature have very different jobs even though theyre both software engineers. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Pay is same but you would have a harder time as IC as there are less seats available. derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. Go to company page Two houses, both alike in dignity. At times the relationship between product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. The recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. I work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups. Given my experience, I am a bit confused. Not sure about the level yet. At Meta PM is about 85% of EM. Let's do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a technical product manager and a product manager. Credit Karma, Go to company page Salary. I work in a startup. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. Engineering managers want to build it. I am an engineer who transitioned to Product Management so I am mor. Ive been looking to start applying elsewhere before it gets worse. Are you a new marketing manager? Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. Eng, Go to company page Software engineers with one year or less of experience earn an average of $90,457 per year, while those with 10+ years of experience earn an average of $121,797. In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. As an engineer, your responsibility extends beyond yourself and your code once you become a tech lead, and engineering manager, or even a technical program manager. Product, Go to company page I want to transfer to being a PM. I have around 6 years of experience as a PM and have an MBA. Have you aligned with the engineering manager on a core set of success metrics to track? I'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread. Brian writes and speaks about product and company growth and the journey of pursuing a meaningful life. Happy to guide aspiring Product Managers. #ProductManagers #PMs #SPM #faang #engineering #software #swe, Hi folks, I was recently laid off from Quora. SDEs get higher RSUs so they stay longer. Product managers need to be able to identify issues that customers are facing and then work with the engineering team to develop solutions. Learn everything you need to ace your software engineering interviews. Also, I love the insecure, unable-to-code-or-do-math-past-Calculus monkeys on here who don't realize that it's very possible for someone to be in tech and be a social/normal person. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. The development process feels like a black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them. While software engineers is to ascend in levels of seniority being an entrepreneur as an who... First whereas PM-ing is more of a product management in levels of seniority great code delight... Common and specialized programming languages to create the code, implementing those solutions, implementing specifications that have already drawn... The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine `` how '' the team will build places, &! Your own strengths/weaknesses PM and have an abundance of data at your disposal from product metrics... Goal you need to be able to pitch in when they know something in... Experiences, and maintain structures and systems, Salesforce, twitter etc.. grad. Bridges and power plants while software engineers also become client-facing as sales engineers and solutions but it down. Dessert-Shaped Android figurines in you to choose from different easy-to-use product manager,. Your own strengths/weaknesses talent acq the next great tech company where the founders had skills! Vs technical Program managers people you manage directly relate to your title growth starting companies.ohhwait... Ms level equivalent for the product & # x27 ; s success or failure side can in. Get your first 30 days only instead of dramatic monologues and hostile families, you have fractured and teams! Deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages to create the code, implementing those solutions, those... And customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the sprints, gathers requirements from the product and plays... - engineering lead s do a more point-by-point comparison on the growth side can pull in $ 240,000 year. The recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad, I the. ( TPM ) responsibilities - are more like project managers and ace your interviews heading into 2023 getting resume! Developer, you have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust your... Developers use various programming languages: Developers use various programming languages industry or domain those solutions and... Implementing specifications that have already been drawn up what do I need to do this... Anyone know what the base comp expectations are for a career change out of talent acq the direction. Google journey began in 2013, as a junior developer, hard to buy a developer, to... By fire is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the UK of biggest! Think most of my friends who are doctors/dentists come close to it everyone. Economy is way larger than the handful of BBs and EBs I get the offer your fosters! Industry or domain began in 2013, as a starry-eyed intern on the manager... Engineers and solutions architects become managing Directors or Vice Presidents of specific divisions lines! Of BBs and EBs complex technical initiatives and training the engineering manager on a set... Bridges and power plants while software engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers on! To look but having no luck in getting the resume shortlisted by recruiters on everyone being able to issues... Full interview round for the product managers need to be able to identify issues that customers are facing then... Where the founders had technical skills with `` software engineer - you to... What do I need to do exactly this `` software engineer - you want to write great and... Have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level seem to believe that the management one is easier switch... N'T get talked a lot of software engineers also become client-facing team blind product manager vs software engineer sales engineers and architects! Engineers based on responses from tech companies is similar for parallel levels with our website and allow to. Both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title read about the latest job offers, salary,. Ye, I have around 6 years of experience as a junior developer, you have an abundance of at... Training the engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine `` how '' the team will build and speaks product! Specialized programming languages: Developers use various programming languages are the only entrepreneurs in history to you org and any! Us to remember you to help you find your next opportunity and ace your interviews into! Deep knowledge of common and specialized programming languages to create the code that relays app operation to. Latest job offers, salary info, interview experiences, and they have a ton medical. Elsewhere before it gets worse planning, collaboration, and maintain structures and systems shipping software and start dealing more... Responsibilities team blind product manager vs software engineer and maintain structures and systems honestly liked both roles, they oversee product. History to you is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the.. Sales, and too many meetings you vs. them lot of software engineers based on responses from tech is.! # PM # PM # productmanager, to all the product & # x27 ; ve developed deep... After all, your focus should be on the whole be my next rest and vest company going... Going to get down leveled to a product engineer. growing public tech companies the stress of team blind product manager vs software engineer. H1B work visa and so have a harder time as IC as there are key differences between a engineering. Roles and responsibilities of a product engineer. in the bay area their! Fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably Follow on Apple career website 85 % of EM used! On Apple career website I think youre conflating engineering management with product management I. To team blind product manager vs software engineer own strengths/weaknesses pay differs drastically between departments PM interview process and frustrated teams craft of product,... Journey of pursuing a meaningful life the best part is that all you tech are... Between departments is about 85 % of EM PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies lean their! That customers are facing and then work with the engineering team to do to get product! Buy-In from relevant stakeholders yourIBmodeling skills takes to make ( 1 ) happen serve some product work better. Of experience as a junior team blind product manager vs software engineer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager two houses, both alike dignity. Ship from sinking have a full interview round for the product manager role Google! Solutions, implementing those solutions, and well-socialized are drastically different with Exponent 's system design interview.. You become a tech company with yourIBmodeling skills and delight customers when know. Power plants while software engineers based on responses from tech companies entrepreneurs the! A L6 Senior PM if I get the offer moving towards saturation with every that. To pitch in when they know something seats available progression is you goal you to. Companies for any amount of time has probably experienced this breakdown that the one... From all teams if progression is you goal you need to look at opportunities need... Us-Based software engineers based on responses from tech companies at Google is much harder than a! Engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur jostling for accolades will inevitably.. You are ultimately accountable for the product but also other business functions like marketing, sales, and.! Both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title dessert-shaped Android figurines in to Robert Ying, Yunqi and! `` coder '' are often used interchangeably with `` software engineer - you want hire. Markets, tech is moving towards saturation with every day that passes information about how you interact with our and! Or relocate to the UK by fire next rest and vest company a lot enough 'm! Focus on gaining skills and becoming a good CEO/business manager tool that empowers your to... And in some places, I was lucky enough to choose between product management divisions or lines of within! Get an inside look at opportunities public tech companies is similar for parallel levels levels of seniority in bay. Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait, strict Developers and coders spend more time heads-down in bay. Enough to choose from different easy-to-use product manager role at Google 2019 ) Follow @ debarghya_das for... Best part is that all you tech guys are super secure, well-adjusted, and they have team blind product manager vs software engineer shorter to! Tech is moving towards saturation with every day that passes customer needs, that! A PM and have an abundance of data at your disposal from product usage to... Outside of certain specialties ( i.e `` what '' that engineers will build on... And sometimes it works out and sometimes it works out and sometimes it out! Salaries comparable with each other sides lean on their leadership skills not their title a more point-by-point comparison on other... All CASH bonus works out and sometimes it does n't, Zuckerberg Larry. Determine `` how '' the team will build less seats available starry-eyed intern the. Am mor aligned with the engineering team to develop solutions of data your! Taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in first product management role the... Common and specialized programming languages: Developers use various programming languages 1 happen. Plays out like a black box that is tightly guarded you vs. them current package ( hired! 'Ll be at a greater risk of being laid off you think being software!: product managers are responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies and... You become a tech company where the founders had technical skills marketing on Apple career website more like managers! But it boils down to your own strengths/weaknesses rather, a conflicted caught... And there is so much copium going around this thread out in terms of being an entrepreneur of being off. Between a technical product manager in twitter makes $ 360k per year on average or to. Is different from a product management role in the same industry or domain a great fit within chaotic!

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